Post by M.R. Hagerty on Feb 14, 2023 10:05:34 GMT -7
Luke 3:16
6 John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”
John clarifies the nature of his mission and his baptism. He and it are not an end-all to their expectations, but a preparation. Again, John’s baptism is with water to indicate its humble and temporary nature. He clearly indicates that the One expected is yet to come that One is of such greater stature and significance that he is unfit to bless Him with the most menial service.
Now we simply have to contrast this with John’s tremendous confidence and boldness in his own message. His preaching was unfettered and as radical as you could get in those times. He was fearless and awesome to behold. (See actor Michael York’s portrayal in Jesus of Nazareth, (Incorporated Television Company, 1977) Yet he readily succumbs and submits to the greatness of the Master soon to be on the scene. A marvelous combination of boldness and humility in the same man. We can appreciate Jesus’ words that among those born of woman, there was none greater than John.
So what of the baptism with the Holy Spirit and with fire?
There are several interpretations to be had, each with merit. Those who are of the charismatic movement see this as a reference to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the attendant gifts of which Paul speaks. Others believe this refers to the NT institution of believer’s baptism which is to be distinguished from John’s baptism in that it imparts the indwelling presence of the Spirit and initiates the believer into the Body of Christ.
The latter explanation sounds like more of a fit because the contrast is supposed to be between John’s preparatory baptism and the real deal at the coming of Jesus. Also the charismatic meaning of the baptism that bestows gifts was not part of Christian experience until Pentecost, after the Ascension. But the main problem is that this interpretation doesn’t explain ”and with fire.”
The charismatic version suffers from the anachronism of referring to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit at such an early stage (which would have left hearers wondering) but it’s the only interpretation that adequately explains ”and with fire.” Still, it can also be argued that the idea of believer’s baptism and incorporation into the Body of Christ would not be a completely new thing to hearers either.
There’s a sort of happy medium. Some formulations of charismatic doctrine offer that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit actually takes place at believer’s baptism, as seen by many examples in the post-Pentecost narratives. So these are seen as one and the same, and the mention of “fire” is in reference to the subsequent bestowal and operation in the gifts (pictured as fire above the disciples’ heads) which was expected at conversion, not as a separate experience.
But some argue that in the case of the disciples it was separate and that is intended as the model for what goes forward. But in many ways, the disciples are transitional and it may be misplaced for us to conclude a sort of inviolable formula that boxes the Holy Spirit into one and only one mode of operation. Certainly Paul’s experiences show it as one and the same with water baptism.
In the end, each must make up their own mind, but it is worth diligent study.
Luke 3:17
17 "His winnowing fork is in His hand . . . to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
John definitely has a view toward the dreadful judgment awaiting the unrighteous compared to that of the faithful. Coupled with his emphasis on doing the works of true repentance is the idea that some in the crowd are neglecting the true works because they are not yet of the household of faith and are counting on being subsumed under Abraham’s covenant.
But God is to be pictured as having a winnowing fork, with which He will ferret out the unacceptable from the desired product, the chaff from the wheat. The ingenuine, the self-deceived have not escaped God’s eye and their destiny is imminent. It is an example from their daily lives that all could comprehend.
There are some today who don’t like this kind of message. They react by either rationalizing that they are not of this group, or that John is caught up in primitive mindsets that had yet to be enlightened by progressive views. There is no unquenchable fire because there is no God who would be so unloving and harsh, so the rationalization goes.
But such views are subtly born out of a will that will not be ruled by anyone and a deception that nothing needs to change. But for conservatives, if nothing needs to change then the path to Heaven is wide and accommodating where all that is important is trying to do your best. And frankly, the God who would wink at such arrogance is hardly worth worshipping.
6 John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”
John clarifies the nature of his mission and his baptism. He and it are not an end-all to their expectations, but a preparation. Again, John’s baptism is with water to indicate its humble and temporary nature. He clearly indicates that the One expected is yet to come that One is of such greater stature and significance that he is unfit to bless Him with the most menial service.
Now we simply have to contrast this with John’s tremendous confidence and boldness in his own message. His preaching was unfettered and as radical as you could get in those times. He was fearless and awesome to behold. (See actor Michael York’s portrayal in Jesus of Nazareth, (Incorporated Television Company, 1977) Yet he readily succumbs and submits to the greatness of the Master soon to be on the scene. A marvelous combination of boldness and humility in the same man. We can appreciate Jesus’ words that among those born of woman, there was none greater than John.
So what of the baptism with the Holy Spirit and with fire?
There are several interpretations to be had, each with merit. Those who are of the charismatic movement see this as a reference to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the attendant gifts of which Paul speaks. Others believe this refers to the NT institution of believer’s baptism which is to be distinguished from John’s baptism in that it imparts the indwelling presence of the Spirit and initiates the believer into the Body of Christ.
The latter explanation sounds like more of a fit because the contrast is supposed to be between John’s preparatory baptism and the real deal at the coming of Jesus. Also the charismatic meaning of the baptism that bestows gifts was not part of Christian experience until Pentecost, after the Ascension. But the main problem is that this interpretation doesn’t explain ”and with fire.”
The charismatic version suffers from the anachronism of referring to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit at such an early stage (which would have left hearers wondering) but it’s the only interpretation that adequately explains ”and with fire.” Still, it can also be argued that the idea of believer’s baptism and incorporation into the Body of Christ would not be a completely new thing to hearers either.
There’s a sort of happy medium. Some formulations of charismatic doctrine offer that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit actually takes place at believer’s baptism, as seen by many examples in the post-Pentecost narratives. So these are seen as one and the same, and the mention of “fire” is in reference to the subsequent bestowal and operation in the gifts (pictured as fire above the disciples’ heads) which was expected at conversion, not as a separate experience.
But some argue that in the case of the disciples it was separate and that is intended as the model for what goes forward. But in many ways, the disciples are transitional and it may be misplaced for us to conclude a sort of inviolable formula that boxes the Holy Spirit into one and only one mode of operation. Certainly Paul’s experiences show it as one and the same with water baptism.
In the end, each must make up their own mind, but it is worth diligent study.
Luke 3:17
17 "His winnowing fork is in His hand . . . to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
John definitely has a view toward the dreadful judgment awaiting the unrighteous compared to that of the faithful. Coupled with his emphasis on doing the works of true repentance is the idea that some in the crowd are neglecting the true works because they are not yet of the household of faith and are counting on being subsumed under Abraham’s covenant.
But God is to be pictured as having a winnowing fork, with which He will ferret out the unacceptable from the desired product, the chaff from the wheat. The ingenuine, the self-deceived have not escaped God’s eye and their destiny is imminent. It is an example from their daily lives that all could comprehend.
There are some today who don’t like this kind of message. They react by either rationalizing that they are not of this group, or that John is caught up in primitive mindsets that had yet to be enlightened by progressive views. There is no unquenchable fire because there is no God who would be so unloving and harsh, so the rationalization goes.
But such views are subtly born out of a will that will not be ruled by anyone and a deception that nothing needs to change. But for conservatives, if nothing needs to change then the path to Heaven is wide and accommodating where all that is important is trying to do your best. And frankly, the God who would wink at such arrogance is hardly worth worshipping.